2010 IHSA Assignments are up!!

[bwspeechteam]

http://www.ihsa.org/activity/ie/2009-10/1assign.htm

Nothing exciting to report in the south. It's essentially the same every year. Most of you seem to have exciting conversations about the suburb assignments, though, so discuss... :biggrinz:

[TruRavenclaw]

I may have looked a bit quickly, but I think it's the same as last year for the most part (correct me if I'm wrong). The Elk Grove Sectional looks like it will be super tough like last year again. Perennial powers (GBW, Warren, Wheaton North, Wheaton Warrenville South) and some strong individuals will definitely make this one to watch.

Whoa... Huntley got moved to a different regional... and it looks like that's what they'll need to get a bunch of people to state.

I'm just trying to take it week by week... so yeah... Good Luck to everyone this Saturday!

[Lionel_Hutz]

Everything seems pretty well balanced.
I hope everyone who is going to post on this thread realizes that the IHSA is focused on 2 important things:
Geography and trying to balance the number of potential entries from teams in each region.

Unfortunately not every team in a regional is going to send a full team, ie. 14 events, to their regional competition, so every year they have to realign what schools make up what regions, that's what makes early December so exciting every year! There are going to be some regionals or sectionals that seem tougher than others, but they are technically balanced since they have similar numbers of potential entries. Before you get really annoyed at how much harder your region is than another one, think about what the regional sites are and where the schools in each region are located. Then go complain to your parents about where they decided to raise you and what school you go to. If you want to be in an "easy" sectional convince your parents to move to a part of the state that you view as being "easy". Give the IHSA the benefit of the doubt, because I know that I wouldn't want to try to figure out who should compete where.

[krossk]

The Strongest Sectional this year will almost certainly be Elk Grove. GBW, WN, WWS, and Warren i think will make for some extremely stiff competition. However, the DGS sectional will be outstanding as well, with DGS, DGN, Hinsdale, and Zeyne (the rest of his school matters very little.) More powerful regionals i think will be these:

Hinsdale Central: DGS, Hinsdale Central (obviously) possible state champions in dda (walsh/derosa), and hi (zeyne g.)

Glenbard West: GBW (obviously), Elk Grove with possible state champions in inf and oratory (annie larsen), sos (kaitlin olivero), and radio (mitch bley.) this is probably the toughest regional this year.

Wheaton North: This is gonna be tough, but it's basically a competition between the two Wheaton Schools. I could see state champions in radio, poetry, sos, extemp and maybe oc from this regional. tough regional, but if there's one thing the wheaton schools are not known for, it's consistency. we'll see.

[Mikefife]

DGS and DGN are in different regionals this year...that's pretty big news.

[jeawagne]

Everything seems pretty well balanced.
I hope everyone who is going to post on this thread realizes that the IHSA is focused on 2 important things:
Geography and trying to balance the number of potential entries from teams in each region.
...
Give the IHSA the benefit of the doubt, because I know that I wouldn't want to try to figure out who should compete where.

We should not give them the benefit of the doubt, as it's been long enough with this old, tired system. Geography should not replace, or matter more than merit in determining advancement.

It should not be about figuring out who should compete where, or at least less.

[eaglecats]

I find it quite funny that the year after Downers Grove North wins regionals they are moved to a different regional without Downers Grove South. Is there any other place in the state where to schools so close together and sister schools at that are not in the same regional?

[Lionel_Hutz]

We should not give them the benefit of the doubt, as it's been long enough with this old, tired system. Geography should not replace, or matter more than merit in determining advancement.

It should not be about figuring out who should compete where, or at least less.
What would you suggest they do?


We couldn't have a system where a school from the very bottom of the state would have to travel to the most northern part of the state to try to even out "strength". Nobody would be willing to put in a system that would cost already budget conscious schools even more money. If there were a system that blended schools from all over the state to see who gets to the state championship fewer schools would actually be able to compete because they would not be able to afford staying overnight. Not to mention the fact that most coaches that are not teachers have other jobs and would find it very difficult to take time off of work and lose money just to travel far across the state and have to stay overnight for a regional or sectional.

Over the years I have heard people say that the IHSA should take into consideration a schools successes at invitational tournaments and seed the schools according to their successes. Unfortunately, such a system would not work because as we all know every weekend there are many different contests to choose from and some are significantly easier than others. So if you were to come in first in Extemp at one tourney that doesn't mean you are necessarily better than the people who did not even make it to finals at another contest. Not to mention the fact that so many invitationals do not follow IHSA rules. They do not DQ people for time violations, they often only have one prep for extemp for the prelim rounds, and radio speakers often prepare scripts the night before or only prep once.


Merit does matter! You have to be the best on your team for your coach to enter you in an event at regionals and you have to win to make it to sectionals, and state! So skill does matter. You have to be the best in your area. Yes, we all know that certain areas or even certain schools are better at some events than others, but we have to have a good representation of people from all over Illinois if we are to truly call it our "state" tournament.

[jeawagne]

What would you suggest they do?

Merit does matter! You have to be the best on your team for your coach to enter you in an event at regionals and you have to win to make it to sectionals, and state! So skill does matter. You have to be the best in your area. Yes, we all know that certain areas or even certain schools are better at some events than others, but we have to have a good representation of people from all over Illinois if we are to truly call it our "state" tournament.

Like I said last year, get rid of regionals entirely. Half of the events go direct to finals at the downstate regionals, and even events at so-called 'power regionals' do too.

Have six (or so) sectionals and advance more people (like 4-6) helping solve one of the problems that deserving competitors that have to go through the tougher sectionals might not make it to state.

Then at the state tournament do away with the procedure where every judge sees every competitor in an event. (Why is this even done now? 18-20 competitors in the same event in one day is rough, even if they are good and two breaks.)

Have three prelim rounds (double judged,) semis (three) and then finals (five.) There can be more rounds now that the tournament is at a non-school site -- it can be started earlier on Friday. Two prelims on Friday. One Saturday morning at nine, semis around eleven, finals at 1:30 and 3:00.

Or some variation of this. The point being that having it arranged like a sport does not make sense.

[eaglecats]

Like I said last year, get rid of regionals entirely. Half of the events go direct to finals at the downstate regionals, and even events at so-called 'power regionals' do too.

Have six (or so) sectionals and advance more people (like 4-6) helping solve one of the problems that deserving competitors that have to go through the tougher sectionals might not make it to state.

Then at the state tournament do away with the procedure where every judge sees every competitor in an event. (Why is this even done now? 18-20 competitors in the same event in one day is rough, even if they are good and two breaks.)

Have three prelim rounds (double judged,) semis (three) and then finals (five.) There can be more rounds now that the tournament is at a non-school site -- it can be started earlier on Friday. Two prelims on Friday. One Saturday morning at nine, semis around eleven, finals at 1:30 and 3:00.

Or some variation of this. The point being that having it arranged like a sport does not make sense.

I agree completely. I know the speech advisory committee made some suggestions about at least adding a 4th competitor to state and some other ideas, that just got totally ignored. Until all of the coaches band together to demand change we will get the same tired old unfair system. Why wouldn't the IHSA want more people competing at a State Tournament if time allows.

[bwspeechteam]

I agree completely. I know the speech advisory committee made some suggestions about at least adding a 4th competitor to state and some other ideas, that just got totally ignored. Until all of the coaches band together to demand change we will get the same tired old unfair system. Why wouldn't the IHSA want more people competing at a State Tournament if time allows.

Remember that anything recommended by the advisory commitee must be approved by the IHSA board of directors at a yearly meeting when they make decisions on ALL IHSA activities, so I don't think there's much time for discussion that day. (though I've never been at one of those meetings, so I could be wrong)

I was told that the recommendations for adding a 4th competitor from each sectional and changing the state set-up were not completely ignored, but that there were too many questions about how it would be implemented to make the change for this year. I think that if the current committee, with suggestions from all coaches, made more specific plans that it would be possible.

[Lionel_Hutz]

I think having 4 in each event break to state is a great idea. I hope after this first year in Peoria all goes well and the advisory board decides to have state begin early in the day Friday, since we no longer have to wait for a high school to get out before we can begin state. I've heard the new set up for state is going to be really good, I've heard great things about the convention center. Hopefully we can eventually have 4 go on to state. People have been talking about it for years, it would be nice for it to finally happen!

[theoriginalraider27]

Just gonna throw this out there but the South Holland (Thornwood) Sectional IS the hardest to get out of, I can say this because my team was in it for two years and it was near to impossible for a little team like mine to break, luckily last year and this year we are a part of the DGS Sectional which isn’t as bad as everyone seems to think.

[DannyHI]

This person is completely correct the South Holland sectional IS the hardest to get out of, people seem to disregard Marian, Oak Lawn, Sandburg, and Shepard as highly competitive teams that do well at nearly every tournament. Plus the Thorn schools have had state champions the last few years at least.

[jayman]

I'm going to go out on a limb here- Without trying to offend anyone- The southside sectional never seems to have anywhere near the success that the DGS and Northern Sectional teams experience at State. I'm not sure why, but it seems that the schools from that sectional do not experience anywhere near the success they expect when they get to state. Look at the top 3-4 schools over the last 10 years. How many have been from there? Again, that's not to say that the kids that come out of there are not talented, because they are. It's just an observation about how they wind up at state. Is it a tough sectional? I think it's all relative. To me, the discussion should be about how they put people where they do. For example- how can you separate the Downers schools in regionals. Or the Glenbards? How is it that schools have to pass sectionals in order to travel to their own sectional? IHSA can spew all about geographics, but in my opinion it really comes down to who has the ear of Susie K.

Good luck to all in 2010.

[DannyHI]

That wasn't offensive, it is just that there is a huge difference in styles between more northern sectionals (relative to chicago), and the southern ones such as the Thorn sectional. The style that wins up north doesn't always do too hot in that sectional. However, that does better at state, which is why the teams who do make it out at that sectional don't necessarily place high. Also with the difficulty of the sectional a lot of good pieces are knocked out and have been over the years.

Here's an example of the strength of the sectional.
2007-2008 top two PIR
DDA champ Thornwood 2nd place thornridge
HDA champ Thornton
Radio 2nd place Sandburg
SOS champ Thornton

2008-2009
3 out of top 4 PIR's
DDA champ Thornridge
Dec champ Thornridge
OO champ Shepard

now you can say that well the downers sectional or warren sectional had a lot more kids there and placing high, but that doesnt mean that they don't have sucess at state.

I fully agree that the boundaries for each sectional should definitely be redefined. There should be no need for schools like the the Glenbrooks to come down to the Thorns or schools like lockport or joliet go to Downers.

[jayman]

Well put. I was looking at the overall strength in showing at state.

[Mikefife]

Very well put Jayman and Danny, however I have to side with Jayman on this one. I do agree with Danny in the fact that people do discredit the Thorn sectional a lot more than they should however the 2 other suburban sectionals I think clearly have much stronger teams as a whole. A good example of this is to not look at the team finishings at state, but what speechwire calls, team strength. Team strength tracks the numbers of entires that each team has from regional finals to state finals. I think this is a very good representation of a team's strength because as we saw this year, you can be in the top 3 teams with just 3 entries in finals. The non-south suburban schools had 6 (3 each) of the top ten, with DGS and DGN taking the number 1 and 2 spot. The only south suburban school was Thornwood at number 9.

[eaglecats]

The thing with team strength is that is it based on the number of students that advance from each school. If the sectional is more competitive then, obviously, the schools will have less entries at the state tournament. While I will not argue that the Thorn sectional has teams that have been as successful as a DGS or WWS, I will argue that if the Thorn sectional schools were in less competitive Sectionals then those schools would have more advance at state. Just take a look at Speechwire and compare the balance of the big 3 sectionals this year. In the Thorn Sectional you have Sandburg, Oak Lawn, Marian, Shephard and Thornton. There are also some good things from Richards, Thornwood, and H.F. and these are just from 2 of the 3 Regionals. It would be interesting if someone could somehow scientifically put together a list of the top 20-30 schools and see how the comparitive strengths of the sectionals play out. Anybody up for it?

[Mikefife]

The problem with your logic is that: the first way team strength is decided is how many people a team has in the state finals. So, if you argue that the Thorn Sectional is over all more competitive, then the people that come out of their should be able to make state finals over the people that came from the other sectionals. In this case, they did not. Shepard, who won the Sectional, brought 5 things to state and broke 2. DGS, who won their sectional, brought 10 and broke 7, and DGN who was second in that sectional brought 8 and broke 5. I can't see how you can call the Thorn sectional the most competitive.

[DannyHI]

But there is the point exactly, first off you are more likely to break more into finals of you have more competitors, odds are just with you. The most from one team to come out of the sectional was around 7. Whether talented or not, odds do favor you when you have more competitors. You also have to factor in the chance of wacky judges.

Now about doing well at state, i believe i mentioned it before, but the south has a completely different way of judging, what does well at the thorn sectional might not do well at state. Judges just look for something different south of Chicago.

But I'm not saying it is hands down the toughest sectional, but it is more difficult then people give credit to

[eaglecats]

DannyHI hit the nail on the head. In the past 8 or 9 years the most anyone has gotten out of the Thorn Sectional is like 7-8 even with that Thornton has been 3rd in the State 3 times and Sandburg was 3rd once. Not to mention all the P.I.R. State Trophies. If Oak Lawn, Marian, Sandburg, Thornton, Shephard, etc was in a Sectional where they could advance 12 things to state every year (like DGS), then one or more of these schools would have an opportunity to win the whole thing. Last year the most anyone got out of the Thorn Sectional was 6 which doesn't give them a chance to win. I am not saying that this is always the toughest sectional but for many years the balance of "strong" teams has been unfair. I still can't believe this year that DGS and DGN are not in the same regional. Maybe it is a coincidence that DGN won Regionals last year and were taken out this year, but maybe its not. It just gets frustrating year after year to watch really good students go down at Sectionals while others get the opportunity to advance because of some imbalanced sectionals. If this is about the students and their opportunities, then why didn't the state take the advisory committees suggestion to add a 4th person to the state finals? With the new venue this would have been easy to manage.

[TrueBlue92]

If Oak Lawn, Marian, Sandburg, Thornton, Shephard, etc was in a Sectional where they could advance 12 things to state every year (like DGS), then one or more of these schools would have an opportunity to win the whole thing. Last year the most anyone got out of the Thorn Sectional was 6 which doesn't give them a chance to win. I am not saying that this is always the toughest sectional but for many years the balance of "strong" teams has been unfair. I still can't believe this year that DGS and DGN are not in the same regional. I agree that some of what happens with DGS during state series seems a bit... fishy. But the bottom line is that great performers will make it to state and do well no matter what their competition is. It doesn't phase them, rather it pushes them to do better. I think that's part of the reason DGS does so well every year is that their coach is insane and they are unsatisfied with anything less than a first place. I would agree that the Oak Lawn, Marian, etc. sectional seems to have a load of powerhouses, but you can say the same thing about the Elk Grove sectional this year with Glenbard West, Wheaton Warrenville South, Warren, and those teams. And, as said before, DGS is in neither of those sectionals...

[Mikefife]

First of all, I think calling any coach insane is just plain rude. And besides that, have you ever met a speech coach that wasn't a little, if not a lot, eccentric? I sure haven't.

Second of all, eaglecats, your comment about the teams in the Thorn-Sectional not having a chance to win is ridiculous. Wheaton North was third in the state with 3 entries! And Warren and Charleston only had 4 in finals. So if you bring "only" 7-8, if you break half of that, you're looking pretty good.

Finally, I would like to clarify that I do not think that the strongest Sectional this year was the DGS Sectional, nor do I think it was the Thorn-Sectional, in my opinion it was the Warren Sectional. The strongest Sectional varies year by year, depending on teams, and boundaries. However, in my opinion, traditionally I think that the strongest sectional has been the DGS Sectional. Just like, traditionally, the Thorn-Sectional gets glossed over. I firmly believe that it does not matter from where you are in the state (suburbs, central, southern) if you are talented, polished, and confident, then even if judges aren't looking for the exact same thing, you will be beat others in your rounds at state. So, that is why, i feel, that if you argue that the Thorn-Sectional is the most competitive and smaller numbers for teams get out, those competitors should be able to beat people from any other sectional.

[TrueBlue92]

First of all, I think calling any coach insane is just plain rude. And besides that, have you ever met a speech coach that wasn't a little, if not a lot, eccentric? I sure haven't.

Finally, I would like to clarify that I do not think that the strongest Sectional this year was the DGS Sectional, nor do I think it was the Thorn-Sectional, in my opinion it was the Warren Sectional. The strongest Sectional varies year by year, depending on teams, and boundaries. However, in my opinion, traditionally I think that the strongest sectional has been the DGS Sectional. Just like, traditionally, the Thorn-Sectional gets glossed over. I firmly believe that it does not matter from where you are in the state (suburbs, central, southern) if you are talented, polished, and confident, then even if judges aren't looking for the exact same thing, you will be beat others in your rounds at state. So, that is why, i feel, that if you argue that the Thorn-Sectional is the most competitive and smaller numbers for teams get out, those competitors should be able to beat people from any other sectional.

Youre right, intense would have been a better word. I apologize. I meant that she is ubelievably into the activity and expects nothing less than the best from the DGS competitors. (not that other coaches are not, but it's obvious with DGS' success over the years that their coaches are a driving factor in this)

And I agree completely with your final point

[jayman]

Youre right, intense would have been a better word. I apologize. I meant that she is ubelievably into the activity and expects nothing less than the best from the DGS competitors. (not that other coaches are not, but it's obvious with DGS' success over the years that their coaches are a driving factor in this)

And I agree completely with your final point

I think it's important to consider that these coaches essentially give up their family life to assist kids in becoming successful. So yes, some of the really good coaches are intense. However, I'm aware of coaches whose programs have had enormous state success who were nowhere near as intense as others. It's all about personality. Now, as far as state success/most difficult regionals and sectional tournaments goes- Success has many variables. However, there have been many teams that do not qualify a large number of people to state that find great team success. I've had the opportunity to witness first hand all of the northern" sectional tournaments. I can tell you that my experience has almost always been this- they are all competitive. But, the styles in each is extremely different in many cases. WHen state rolls around, the styles from the Elk Grove (this years secrtional) and DGS (this years sectional) sectionals seem to play much better. In my opinion, there is a whole lot more subtlty grounded into the performances in those sectionals, than in the Thorn sectional. That's not to say the kids in the Thorn sectional are any less talented. I'm saying that perhaps it's easier for judges to be impressed with subtlty and for those kids to stand out.

[DannyHI]

I think it's important to consider that these coaches essentially give up their But, the styles in each is extremely different in many cases. WHen state rolls around, the styles from the Elk Grove (this years secrtional) and DGS (this years sectional) sectionals seem to play much better. In my opinion, there is a whole lot more subtlty grounded into the performances in those sectionals, than in the Thorn sectional. That's not to say the kids in the Thorn sectional are any less talented. I'm saying that perhaps it's easier for judges to be impressed with subtlty and for those kids to stand out.


This is definitely the case i was trying to make. You have to be talented to make it down to state in any case. Sometimes it just comes down to judge preference and style. That could be the reason Thorn sectional teams don't do well at state. But truly unless every judge changed their mind on how to critique performers, there is no escape from difference in style.