Arrogance and Confidence

[airpezman]

There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence.

**I have noticed a pattern. VERY successful extempers often have a tinge of arrogance to their swagger, their persona.

Does this carry over to the other events?

Question 1: Do you feel that Final Round Interpers ever display a tinge of arrogance?


PEZ

[theatrix04]

please do not stone me.... more so the extemp and debaters

[NFox]

I find that in Interp, the most successful people are often some of the nicest. Of course they have to be confident to get there, but I've never considered them arrogant.

Short and to the point (Unlike many of my posts). Maybe I'll expand on this idea later.

Nick Fox

[theatrix04]

I find that in Interp, the most successful people are often some of the nicest. Of course they have to be confident to get there, but I've never considered them arrogant.

Short and to the point (Unlike many of my posts). Maybe I'll expand on this idea later.

Nick Fox
OMG mark this date and time.....
I agree... the top interpers I have judged, coached, and seen ..... have been the nicest and not arrogant....


however many of the extempers and almost all of the debaters have
been pompous, arrogant, and beyond what I want to deal with

[nubian_lover]

I've never debated or done extemp, so I wouldn't know about those ones, but to reiterate what the aforementioned have said, I've never talked to a great competitor who has been arogant. But I don't really go to out of state tournaments, so I can only account for Arizona. We have some of the nicest people I know who are also pretty amazing.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I did see a few people at ASU who finaled and who seemed upset that they weren't higher, (and they kinda showed it in their way of accepting their awards, shaking their heads, how they went off stage, etc.) I thought it was kinda rude, but I don't know why they thought so. It could have been that they thought they were the best, or that the one who beat them weren't as good, I don't know. I just think if you feel slighted, then not to show it on the stage. It's disrepectful to the other competitors. Now, once again, I don't know these people personally, so there could have been something behind it. They may not be arrogant people at all.

[GlobalLlama]

I don't think there is a definitive trend.

It may seem like there is, but I believe this is rooted in the nature of the events.

Interp people are supposed to be real. Like it or not, you are influenced by people IN as well as out of rounds. By nature, interpers are trying to connect. They have to be friendly and down-to-earth. Extempers and Debaters HAVE to come off as extremely knowledgable, respectable, and superior to their opponents. Confidence defines our events. We have to be confident to make you confident in what we are saying. That is how we pick up ballots. You need confidence in an interp round, but within seconds you fade into a new character and can become someone else.

We tend to take on airs, especially with language, but it is necessitated by our event. You wouldn't trust a hick with an accent and a slouch when he explains the intricacies of the Indonesian economy, but you might enjoy listening to him give an HI. This leads extempers and debaters to build a persona for themselves. Generally, we do our best to maintain our persona throughout competition, whereas to never weaken our credibility. In actuality though, a lot of us are pretty fun people in general.

Also, I will admit, there are some problems with superiority complexes. On average, extemp/debate types are just much different people than interpers. Interpers are dramatic and exuberant, whereas extempers/debaters are usually collective, analytical, and reserved. Extemp TOC was my favorite competitive environment of all time. It was the best of the best, and while egos were present, they certainly did not define the mood. We all got along, because we were similar people with similar interests. We made some interper jokes, but not out of malice. We just run a very different ship, and we like it that way.

This complex is also exacerbated by work loads. Not be arrogant myself, but I would assert that extemp/debate are a lot more raw work than interp. I think interp is much more focused on natural ability and bringing that to the foreground (thus I do admit that the talent required here is astronomical, while I am of the school of that at least mediocre extemp can be tought). It is about honing techniques. However, the hardest part of extemp isn't unlocking natural ability, but rather it is uncovering the necessary knowledge. I believe I am scraping the bottom end of my highest potential currently as far as speaking, but I still have to read about three hours a day to keep sharp. I had to teach myself economics and international relations from textbooks. Oftentimes, I think extempers/debaters take their work a little TOO seriously. This leads to a lot of stress, and in turn, a rather gruff attitude.

Besides, I have met a ton of really arrogant *****s who were interpers. I, honestly, think they are worse. If an extemper/debater doesn't like you, chances are you will know it within 5 minutes of meeting them. Meanwhile, if some of the more *****ly interpers don't like you, you won't have a clue until you hear the nasty rumors they started about you the next week. Of course, these are bottom-feeding people, but they are still present.

You know the biggest reason why we just don't get along with interpers?

This . . .

many of the extempers and almost all of the debaters have been pompous, arrogant, and beyond what I want to deal with

We work on a very different level. We do entirely different things. Even down to the cores of the individuals, we are completely different. Yet when it gets right down to it, we are just generally looked at as lepers and pariahs. He's a DEBATER is a viable description of someone's character and moral fiber to the vast majority of interpers. We all get clumped as arrogant and pompous. That is just bull****. We aren't going to scream and jump when they post or when we win. We are probably going to chuckle a little to ourselves when you do. That doesn't mean we are arrogant. We are just different. Extemp/Debate are very professional environments. Every action we make can influence our credibility (and rank) in a round. We can't afford to be as extroverted, but just because our customs are different doesn't mean our characters are. I think regarding people as morally inferior (after all arrogance isn't a good thing) simply because they have a very different attitude and approach is just plain wrong.

Neither group is intrinsically superior. They are just very, very different.

I mean come on, these are my friends you're talking about! They are nice people, and they certainly don't deserve this kind of rep.

[theatrix04]

You know the biggest reason why we just don't get along with interpers?

This . . .
theatrix04 wrote:
many of the extempers and almost all of the debaters have been pompous, arrogant, and beyond what I want to deal with


We work on a very different level. We do entirely different things. Even down to the cores of the individuals, we are completely different. Yet when it gets right down to it, we are just generally looked at as lepers and pariahs. He's a DEBATER is a viable description of someone's character and moral fiber to the vast majority of interpers. We all get clumped as arrogant and pompous. That is just bull****. We aren't going to scream and jump when they post or when we win. We are probably going to chuckle a little to ourselves when you do. That doesn't mean we are arrogant. We are just different. Extemp/Debate are very professional environments. Every action we make can influence our credibility (and rank) in a round. We can't afford to be as extroverted, but just because our customs are different doesn't mean our characters are. I think regarding people as morally inferior (after all arrogance isn't a good thing) simply because they have a very different attitude and approach is just plain wrong.


I have coached three State Champions in Extemporaneous Speaking and two in Impromptu in recent years. I was a Policy and LD debater in high school, theatre, and I.E.

However, my comment was more about recent encounters with specific groups of Debate and Extempers who distance themselves or are above everyone else on the team. THERE IS NO I in TEAM and whether people believe it or not Speech and Debate .... qualify and should be teams.

There's a fine, fine line!!! as quoted from two musicals.....
And there is between knowledgable, intelligent, confident and
Arrogant, Pompous, and so on!

I recently was asked by a DEBATER two questions and statements:

FIRST
I DO NOT SEE THE NEED TO BE DRESSED UP IN BUSINESS ATTIRE FOR A TOURNAMENT OR WHOLE WEEK. Do you really mean we have to wear business type attire?

SECOND
I do not see why anyone should have to do consolation or supplemental events. What do you mean by the tournament is a whole week whether we break or not? I do not see why we cannot just go home early if we do not make it all the way to finals.

I expressed with both.... You do not have to do the other events, if you keep breaking. The tickets are Non-refundable and we do not go home until Saturday.... no matter what.

And

Appearance does matter.

So, I apologize for my generic statement, but I had just come from a meeting with parents, qualifiers, coaches..... and the above statements were asked by a couple students. I was hot. Also ALL OF THE POLICY DEBATE students I have come in contact with in the past two years have fallen dangerously close into the negative mold. I have tried to help, I have been the one to get the budget and such to have the debaters go to districts and nationals...... only to have negative statements about I.E. Interpers, and why do we have to do this, why do we have to do that, why do you insist upon enforcing school rules and so on.


I formally apologize since the PFD debate students I have met in the past two year, the LD debate students, some extempers have been awesome, amazing and up to the challenge of national competition. My short statement was a generalization, but an observation of the students (and some coaches) I have had contact with in debate and extemp. However, you are absolutely correct.... the knowledge and confidence is necessary.


I applaud each and every debater and extemper (and I.E. competitor) who has qualified in State, Districts, and to Nationals.

YOU ALL ARE AMAZING~ I wish each and every one of you good luck. I look forward to judging PFD and whatever else I am assigned this week.

Kudos!!!!

[Forensicator]

I've never debated or done extemp, so I wouldn't know about those ones, but to reiterate what the aforementioned have said, I've never talked to a great competitor who has been arogant. But I don't really go to out of state tournaments, so I can only account for Arizona. We have some of the nicest people I know who are also pretty amazing.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I did see a few people at ASU who finaled and who seemed upset that they weren't higher, (and they kinda showed it in their way of accepting their awards, shaking their heads, how they went off stage, etc.) I thought it was kinda rude, but I don't know why they thought so. It could have been that they thought they were the best, or that the one who beat them weren't as good, I don't know. I just think if you feel slighted, then not to show it on the stage. It's disrepectful to the other competitors. Now, once again, I don't know these people personally, so there could have been something behind it. They may not be arrogant people at all.

you know, sometimes when competitors do this when they are getting their award it because they are thinking "man... i could have done so much better... if only my 1st round was better, i could have been first..." sometimes its more of a dissapointment that they didnt give it their all, and the place they got (because it was not first) reminded them that every single round counts, and that you have to give it your all in every round... so this could be an epiphany for some people. just thought i would give my two cents on your comment.

[nubian_lover]

But how do you know that until your ranks come in? I know that some coaches tell their students what they received in every round, but you don't know what the other person received, so how can you say that you would have beat them if you did better in one round if you don't even know what they got?

Wow, that sounded really *****y. :oops:I'm sorry if I'm sounding mean, because I don't mean to sound so rude. I guess what I'm trying to say but not doing a very good job of :P is that if you are going to have an "epiphany," don't do it then, on stage, at the awards ceremony, where you may be raining on someone else's parade.

And like I already stated, this is the only time that I've really seen behavior that I was like wha?, and I don't know these people so I don't want to judge them so harshly (hence the reason why I didn't say their names). I've only known awesome people for forensics, and that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't jerks out there, but I guess I choose to either distance myself from them, or don't notice them.

[carl olson]

I understand what Forensicator is trying to say. I mean if you break, your physched. You go in to final round, your friends are watching you, you think you do great. You go onstage. And you're called for 6th place. It sucks. And sometimes it shows, even though you mean no disrespect to those who finished ahead of you.

[nubian_lover]

I guess I see what you're saying. I suppose almost everyone has that look of :shock: when we get lower than we think. It's also not a very easy face to hide on stage :)

[jdcongresscapt]

The interpers that I've seen, for the most part, are as non-arrogant as is possible to be. To Dave's point, the extempers I know are as collected and non-excitable as ever when they're hearing breaks or awards.
I have seen a few cases where some people (interpers, I might add) stormed off the stage when they heard their name called early.I would agree this is somewhat of an insult to those who placed higher, but it is even moreso to those who did not break period. There are some who would have given anything to be on that stage and for a finalist to treat their place as if it were nothing really demeans everyone.

[GlobalLlama]

Theatrix, apology accepted. I understand. Honestly, I can't really comment on policy kids anyway. I don't know a single one. We have never had one on our team. To be fair, you are correct. Your debater seems to have some attitude problems. I'm just glad you rectified it, because we aren't all jerks.

Thanks for the luck! We're going to need it!

And good luck yourself putting up with your debaters all week!

[justine]

What is it with Policy Debaters? (No offense to you nice ones out there, I just don't know you.) The policy kids are always the ones who dress "down" and wear stuff like pajama pants (no, I'm not kidding) to tournaments. Also, we recently had a problem in my league where the policy kids- and ONLY the policy kids- kept on vandalising the schools they competed in. And look at theatrix's quote, she says most are on the negative side of the line. I don't know what the deal is but something must be done about these policy debaters...

[GlobalLlama]

You might want to tone it down a bit, Justine. That sounded a little "final soultion"-y :wink: . Their event is so evidentially focused, that dress isn't a factor for them. I don't know why. It just isn't. As to why they are jerks (at least the ones you mention), I couldn't tell you. To provide some insight, read the policy resolution, and then look at the number of files they have. If you had to read that much on that topic, you might be a bit cranky too.

[justine]

Oops, you're right Globalllama, that sounded kind of harsh. Sorry about that. :oops:

I just bring it up because I'm kind of annoyed at them because since they vandalized our last school that hosted States (and was really great for hosting States too) so we might not be allowed to use that school for a tournament again which is kind of annoying.

You're also right about the files. I saw some teams at Harvard with 5 tubs that they were trying to carry around. I felt REALLY bad for them!

About dress, I guess I put a lot of emphasis on dress and I don't like it when people don't dress professionally. You bring up a good point about dress not matter as much as evidence for policy, but it's kind of like a hard habit to break- judging people by the way they dress.

[xxLusciousZechxx]

Ha ha ha.

Was this thread made for me?

Arrogance/confidence is my middle name.

Forward slash and all.

[theatrix04]

Theatrix, apology accepted. I understand. Honestly, I can't really comment on policy kids anyway. I don't know a single one. We have never had one on our team. To be fair, you are correct. Your debater seems to have some attitude problems. I'm just glad you rectified it, because we aren't all jerks.

Thanks for the luck! We're going to need it!

And good luck yourself putting up with your debaters all week!

Fortunately, I have two GREAT, Sweet, intelligent kids doing PFD and an even better observer coming with us. Not to mention some absolutely WONDERFUL interp, extemp, and pfd kids from other schools in our district and State which I am pumped for and cheering on!! I am looking forward to having a terrific week. I am concerned about the behavior and our school code of conduct for the one person on the team... but I FOLLOW THE RULES and it will be their problem not mine........

Thanks, I know you all will keep me entertained and I look forward to fun times.....