Best State in Speech at NFL's

[CatMan]

Minnesota won big at the 2005 Nationals! They won 4 of the 6 speech championships. (DI, USX, OO, and IX).

It's also interesting to note that these 4 Minnesota champions all come from the same public school district in Minnesota (the 3 different schools all included in one school district -- Eastview 2 champions in DI and USX, Eagan 1 champion in IX, Apple Valley 1 champion in OO plus the 2nd place finisher in HI).

So, 4 champions this year all hailed from not only the same state but from the same school district.

These 3 teams are so good because they compete against each other all season and force each other to get better.

[jman255*]

Texas and California are high up there....like always.

[Theatreguy]

Yea i mean i think texas woulda had some competition in di if we woulda have sent the right people... Dangelo Lacey not going... Charrissa Granero not going, Michelle Golden not going.... those 3 people where 1,2,3 in the state in DI and didnt even go.....

I think any of them could have won that round.... although i didnt see it... i know there talent and think its amazing

[CatMan]

Why didn't they qualify? why didn't the performers who beat them advance very far at nationals?

[jman255*]

Why didn't they qualify? why didn't the performers who beat them advance very far at nationals?Amazingl tough district. Also, D's piece wasn't as good as it was last year...I think the right people were sent...Texas had 2 in finals...

[Theatreguy]

I think good people where sent from the district.... If anyone saw Jd Vanslykes "Falling man" would agree it probley deserved semis or finals.... but i don't know why they didnt qual.... they was probley the toughest district... in the nation..... top 3 state finalist, 7th in the state, 10th in the state, as well as otehr state semis people..... plus the 2004 national champion......

[eaganspeechette06]

go minnesota! 4 outta 6!!!! and yes, we do compete against the best of the best every week. you HAVE to be good.

[poonan]

I want to compete against Eagan or Apple Valley at least once next year. I want to see what the best in the nation has to offer (no sarcasm involved).

[Pulp Fictionist]

where are you located poonan?

[CatMan]

Eagan and Apple Valley have great teams. But its Eastview from MN that has really shined lately. Eastview has had 4 national champions in the past 2 years.

[SniffyGuy]

New Jersey wasn't too bad this year. 2 Champions - one in HI and one in the Senate - as well as a 3rd place in the House and a semifinalist in HI.

[Chewie]

1. Minnesota
2. Texas
3. California
4. er....um...Missouri *runs away*

Not really (maybe), but we DID have a rather good showing, I think:

2nd Storytelling
2nd Extemp Commentary
4th in House (GO PAT! GO PHS!)
3rd, 2nd, and 1st in PF (Although Ryan strongly disagrees with those placings)
3rd FX

So, that's a nice showing, right? Plus a few semi finalists and I think someone placed in Senate, too.

[jman255*]

Virginia had a semifinalist in DI.

...Yep!Hahahaha.

[addjsd12]

Yes.... I know Florida didnt represent well at NFL's but Florida is by far one of the top 4 most competitive states! I mean, we did very well at CFL's and we have lots of great talent! Miami and Orlando have districts that are nuts (VERY VERY VERY tough to even win consistantly)! All Im saying is, you can say we didnt show up this year, but Florida has many talented people! 8)

[Theatreguy]

yay for texas

[chapstickisgood]

i'd definitely have to agree with the minnesota comments. it has been amazing to see eastview grow incredibly as a team over the last four years... a true testament to the surrounding competition.

[OverMyHead]

I'm on a team in MN that competes with Eagan, Eastview, and Apple Valley only once every year (Schwan's) and it is always amazing to get the chance to compete against them even though they run everyone into the ground. Even though there are alot of small teams there, they don't act snotty or look down on the other teams because they are so successful. I can't wait for that meet. Eight months is too long!!

[poonan]

Madhiduoguy, I am from Elkins High School in Texas.

[MiStaKe]

Hey Chapstick -

Speaking of which, who's going to do the countdown to the Marshall Schwan's tournament now that you are gone?!?!?! :cry:

[Pope Oratory the Great]

I am from CA but I think if you look at the facts you can see CA slightly edges out MN. Eagen, Apple Valley and Eastview are very good however one has to look at how political NFL can be. The main states that break are usually MN, CA, TX, IL, IN, FL, and Mass. So normally due to NFL judge restrictions the out round judges consist of the middle and southern States. Now these coaches and former competitors judging are not only upset that their kids didn’t break but they hold biases on style. Dropping kids for not competing the way they teach their kids. So naturally all the big tourneys are in the Midwest, south, and on the east coast. This puts teams from CA AZ and New Mexico at a disadvantage especially in an event like HI or OO where styles are so regional.

Now I’m not making excuses this is just the truth in fact for anyone on this site that reads this, you may just realize why you cant get out of that Qtr round at NFL. So I'll share a secret with you to have a chance at finals you have to own coots. If you do well in these rounds you can have an average Qtr and break into semis. In semis they usually have better qualified judges than Qtr’s and if you really are as good as you think justice usually prevails.

Any who to get back on track CA bests MN in my opinion by the depth of the competitors. Apple Valley has usually two kids that go exceedingly far but that is it and it's almost always oratory and HI. And Eagen has fallen a bit since previous years although Kevin Troy made history. Why if you look at CA it bests MN in Debate and Congress first off. Bellermine Prep, Monte Vista, and Mira Monte are some of the power houses of the nation and they rarely seen outside of CA. Bellermine has had two NFL runner ups in LD and one in Policy in the past two years. And Miramonte has had an NFL runner up in congress and countless finalist in the past three years. Both Schools also excel in extemp Bellermine with the runner up in IX in 2004 and two in finals in 2005. Miramonte has had good extemp success with underclassmen getting a 4th and fifth place finish in DX in the last three years. Oh and I didn’t even mention the success the CPS, College Preparatory school from CA has won some of the best Policy tournaments in the nation.

So with intern I think it's a dead heat with MN and CA MN getting the champs and CA having many more in finals and Semis. I give the edge to MN in Oratory due to Apple Valley success. While Eastview and Troy have had great individual success, CA should get the nod in extemp by having many different and multiple finalist every year. And lastly CA congress is head and shoulders above MN, however it's clear that FL is the undisputed congress state.

Top States

#1California/ Texas depends on what you like better interp CA/Policy TX
#2 Minnesota Great individual schools but the same three all the time
#3 Illinois Downers Groove and Gleenbrooks leading the way

[MiStaKe]

I think you are giving little credit to some very prestigious judges by saying that they hold biases and can't judge a round fairly because they are upset that their kids didn't break.

Minnesota also had semi-finalist from both Roseville (in DI and Duo) and Lakeville (in Duo), not just Eagan, Apple Valley and Eastview. Edina also produces great Extempers and Debaters.

[chapstickisgood]

First of all, I can barely understand parts of your post, you might want to look it over and make corrections.

Also, don't forget Eastview had a policy team take 2nd last year AND was named a National Speech & Debate COMBINED School of Excellence.

[Chewie]

That's, uh, that's a **** of a conspiracy theory you got there, Pope. Really justifies everything. Yep. ...really...

Except the parts where you make incredible leaps in logic and take massive presumptions that everyone who doesn't judge in your style is wrong.

[alexgarlock]

i actually think that pope is a dumbass. we have one extemp for the past three years, homan won it last year and this year in US. Troy won us when he was 13, 13!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then again this year. so i think we take you in extemp. we also take you in oratory. and then again in HUMOR...

[jdcongresscapt]

Firstly, it's "H-o-h-m-a-n-n"
Second, Troy won USX when he 14, 14!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Doobs]

First I think this debate is an argument in futility that does nothing but risk hurting the feelings of others for no reason that I can see. Second, yes Kevin was 14 when he won the U.S. Extemp Speaking title in 2003. But in some people's defense he had just turned 14 two months before the national tournament.

As for state dominance over anything forensics, this is a useless exercise since the national tournament is only 1 tournament in the greater scheme of tournaments.

But just so that people have the facts in front of them. In the state by state comparison between Minnesota and California one will find that over the pas 15 national tournaments Minnesota has 8 national champions in the two extemp categories representing 4 different schools. With Minesota winning 5 of the past 6 titles. California during the same time period has won 4 national titles with students representing 3 different schools. This is not to say that California hasn't had many very good extemp speakers over the years. These are simply the statistics that show the current state of extemp in a bigger picture even than that shown by only looking at the past three tournaments. I identify the number of schools represented to check back the argument that Minnesota is only a 3 school state whereas California is a many school state.

Finally, get over the paranoia. California is not being targeted by the judges in the nationals pool and the judges who judge semi's and finals are for the most part the best from each district. Yes, they don't have kids in those events but that is one of the aspects that makes them more objective not less. Beyond this the majority of tournaments do not take place in the midwest. If you are going to make arguments like this please provide some sort of evidence.

To be honest and upfront with everyone on this board. I am from Minnesota and yes I am one of the Eagan coaches, in particular I am Kevin's coach in extemp speaking.

I hope that everyone has a great summer and I look forward to seeing the extempers who return competing next season.

Chris

[Theatreguy]

ok i do think pope was sorta being rude.... but i do agree texas and cali are the two strongest states....
Minesota proved a lot this year.... but consistently texas and cali have numorous finalist/champions

[jman255*]

This is how it goes...TX breaks an incredible amount of kids to outrounds...In duo along I think they had 19 break to octafinals. California has a great pocket of shcools that do amazingly well, and same with Minnesota. The trick is having the better people. CA and MN usually have the better of the 3 states, but TX does well. It is very difficult to decide which state is the best because they are all so **** good. I vote three way tie.

[poonan]

I just vote three way... :oops:

[addjsd12]

Give a little love to Florida. We dominate OI!

[Pope Oratory the Great]

As Jaded or paranoid as my comments sound they are the truth and if you don’t believe me you go ahead and start coaching and you'll see the politics that I speak off. Alexgarlock, chewchewtrain64 and the rest of you who probably think Imp a dumbass, I ask you to look out side the perfect bubbles you live in and answer this question.

Why are there so few faces of color on the NFL Rostrum national champion page every year? Now before you go researching to find all the facts let me get more in-depth with the question.

Why are there so few women on this magazine picture? Wasn’t last year the first time a women has won the NFL National title in extemp over ten years?

And at this point you have probably found a veritable plethora of minorities who have been on that Rostrum Cover page. Congrats but as much of an honor it is to win the Barbara Jordan debates you yourself know there value in the realm of respect in the debate community.

Oh there is plenty of diversity in the DI round where have my manners gone. Of course all people of color can act dance and sing right? In fact the National Champion in DI had been African American since 2002-2004 with countless runner ups. So your probably asking what am I getting at how does this relate to my previous post, well put two and two together.

If you look at the teams from the west coast primarily California you will see something that is lacking in Minnesota it's called diversity ladies and gentlemen. In fact go on NFL.org look at the member list for schools and you will see last names that you've probably never seen. The NFL is no different than the PGA it's an Old Boy's club. However things are slowly starting to change with the help of NFL President Scott Wyan(Great Man). Alexgarlock, chewchewtrain64 and the rest of you have probably never asked yourselves these questions because you don’t need to. There are very few people of color on your team led alone your own schools.

For the record the record Oratory has been an event dominated by women for the past five years. In fact the greatest NFL Orator Anton Ford from Bellermine CA was national champ in 1994,1995 and another stage appearance in OO in 1993 was bi-racial black and white. But he is often forgotten because he did appear to be white at first glance. On the other hand I don’t feel he has been given the same do Josh Gad or Jarred Weiss have because he was mixed. And In 1985 Ronald Flagg a full African American from a Texas school won Oratory with a piece entitled the "price of Equality" where in his closing point he gave a personal example about an elderly white women that gave him a nickel for a good deed..."And I never for got that lady...I never forgot that nickel" lol I still cant believe that.

Sorry if my grammar is not up to par but this i an informal forum

But I guess dat's how I be written sum' times ya know (just to be ebonically correct)

[Chewie]

That's, uh, that's a **** of a conspiracy theory you got there, Pope. Really justifies everything. Yep. ...really...

Except the parts where you make incredible leaps in logic and take massive presumptions that everyone who doesn't judge in your style is wrong.

But, no, really. I know what you mean. In the other NFL, National Football League, there was a time when the NFC beat the AFC in the Super Bowl like, 8 out of 10 seasons. This is another great example of unwarrented bias, only the judges in this case were the referrees. And because of their not calling holding at the right times, and letting Joe Montana act like a quarterback, those referees let the NFC win. The teams didn't do jack.

Or like the time that Martin Luther King did that whole Civil Rights thing? Yeah, he was just a puppethead of white democrats in Washington who needed a black man to represent them. He wasn't nearly as passionate about civil rights as he seemed to be. He was just getting paid off by democrats so that they could use him to get leverage in Washington against Republicans, not because he wanted any freedom for his people.

I was given a biology scholarship to UMKC. This is obviously because I'm favored unfairly. How am I favored unfairly you ask? I have no ****ing clue, but I obviously didn't deserve to be where I am, because I didn't actually do the work that I have here on my transcript, I didn't perform as well as the record shows I did in high school, and I didn't earn the money from those jobs that I had. Obviously.

Shut the **** up. It's bull**** logic like this why we still have hate groups in this country, and why there is still such a blatant sociological rift between minorties and whites. When you search specifically to magnify race/gender and use racial/genderistic oppression to justify any situation, then you are doing nothing but exacerbating the problem itself, and in this case, making it worse than it already is.

'n' yo' ebonics need sum work, G.

[Pope Oratory the Great]

Im sorry Im not being a good race neutral negro sir. You dont have to use profanity to prove your point there chew chew. Yes the truth hurts doesnt it but hey you dont have to be upset at me Im not pointint the finger at you Im sure you have lots of black friends. :D

[Chewie]

How the **** would I know, and much, MUCH more importantly, why does it MATTER, that you're black? That's the whole god**** point, Pope. You're making a mountain out of a molehill that needs to be flattened.

[Pulp Fictionist]

Not to get drastically involved, but Pope, if the majority of team members on the majority of teams are white...that's simply the result of a smaller number of African-American and or oriental, etc., CHOOSING not to participate in Forensics. This activity is voluntary. It's not like a board of supervisors gathers plans for an occasional draft and force today's youth, much less on a racial base, to engage in the activity. And if a woman hasn't been a champion in so and so years, then there most likely wasn't a deserving one. Ask yourself the WHOLE **** question man

[Chewie]

Well, Madhi...regarding the choosing not to...

We all know forensics cost money, and obviously a lot of poorer schools wouldn't be able to afford a forensics team. It's not always a matter of choice for black high schoolers who live in poor communities.

[Chewie]

Pope and I just had a lengthy conversation over IM...I know I'm a lot less angry(althought I wasn't at first)...here's what we had to say:

Pope: Hello Are you there?
Chewie: allo?
Chewie: who's this?
Chewie: Pope?
Pope: why yes my race neutral friend
Chewie: Go ahead, tell me what that MEANS.
Pope: I dont want to upset you or anything like that
Pope: but I will not apologize for the truth
Chewie: you're overthinking this, Pope.
Pope: Im not overthinking it for four years I experienced it
Pope: Im not personally attcking you
Chewie: Just society and the NFL.
Pope: but you have to open up you eyes
Pope: your
Chewie: You know, the implication that I am unaware of racial discrimination is very insulting, Pope.
Pope: well it is very insulting to read your response
Chewie: Tell me how.
Chewie: Because I'm being insensitive to the discrimination of the NFL?
Pope: in a way yes
Pope: so are you still competing in Forensics or have graduated
Chewie: This argument is going to devolve very quickly into who's sliding down which slope.
Chewie: I graduated in '03.
Pope: ah congrats me a year later in '04
Chewie: huttah.
Pope: what events you seem like an extemper
Chewie: HI and Duo and LD and I've done near everything else.
Chewie: I'm on a schedule, Pope, is there something you want to say?
Pope: I was an OOer myself did Duo and DI
Pope: well since Im being rushed I feel you should retract your statment although it is sarcatic It's very unsetteling
Chewie: Well, I feel the same about yours, Pope. I feel that your emphasis on race and gender is very degrading to those who have done that well in speech.
Pope: I competed on the most diverse team in the nation and lived in the Bay Area of CA wonderful diversity and you wouldnt believe the blatent racism in forensics in a blue state of all places
Pope: But I dont challenge there sucess I just want people to think
Chewie: Well, insulting us is not the way to do that. Implying that we live in a social bubble is not the way to do that.
Chewie: You're coming off as very abrasive and inconsiderate, Pope.
Pope: Do you think it is coincidence that the NFL rostrum is that way every year
Chewie: If I don't, does that mean I'm not paying attention?
Pope: No Im coming off as gruff and agreessive which is a no no for a black man
Chewie: No one knows your black, Pope, I sure didn't.
Chewie: And being rude never helps, and that's what your being in those posts.
Pope: non Brian Gumbel qualities I like to call it
Chewie: Bryant
Pope: thanks
Pope: you can tell Im not a big fan
Chewie: of what?
Pope: Gumbel
Chewie: Listen, you obviously have a lot of deep thought on the subject your posting about, but if you're going to present ideas that generally go against the grain (which is what you seem to be doing, since not many are buying into your arguments), then you can't INSULT them.
Pope: I not rude in the posts I jsut dont come across in a nice tone
Chewie: potato, potah-toe
Chewie: I don't take pride in being polite, either (obviously), but if I want to make a strong point about something, I'm going to make sure it's well-presented.
Chewie: especially if I know it's not a commonly-held belief.
Pope: I see what your saying
(there was a part that was asked to be deleted, during which I asked if I could post this convo...also, Pope made a metaphorical reference to walls)
Pope: Do what you think is best
Chewie: The walls you're talking about...you're placing so much emphasis on them that doesn't NEED to be placed...I understand that they're there and YES, they do need to be undone...but I very strongly believe empasizing those walls when they're already crumbling is not the way to do it.
Pope: You would never understand until you coach
Chewie: you assume I haven't coached.
Pope: coach a diverse group
Chewie: Assumptions, Pope, make an *** out of u and umptions.
Chewie: I admit...Kansas City is never going to be mistaken for Harlem...
Chewie: But you're not being fair in your assessment of me and others on the board.
Pope: where have you coached or wht camps im intressed
Chewie: Just my school, Pope.
Chewie: Park Hill South HS in Kansas City.
Chewie: And we even *gasp* have black people!
Chewie: (that was a joke, not a jab)
Pope: well Im tired of seeing posts about Props and seeing people type I think doing all those black pieces is not fair they use there skin color as a prop
Pope: tomato to-mato
Chewie: Well, ****, I'll shoot down those jackasses right with you.
Chewie: Performance is a performance.
Chewie: You do what you can with what you have.
Pope: but you see you may be of open mind but many just agree or say nothing of the sort
Chewie: People don't have a choice in their ***, skin color, height, etc...so they do whatever they need to with what they have.
Chewie: And I'll be sure to correct them.
Chewie: But insulting and spreading conspiracy theories is not the way to introduce that argument.
Pope: antoher problem with NFL is the parental judging
Pope: they are not conspiracy theories they are the truth
Chewie: Then don't explain them as such.
Pope: dont precieve them that way
Chewie: Well, Pope...the speaker is always presenting himself to the listener...he has to assume that everyone listening is a dumb****, and compensate for that so that he can get our point across without alienating them.
Chewie: A lot of times they are, and some times they aren't...but if you insult and degrade others while presenting a socially abnormal idea...it will be hard to have it accepted.
Pope: yeah I hate the alienating thing that's so common in this debate with people say that certain pieces made them feel alienated.
Pope: yeah no wonder why Martin Luther King has a holiday except in Arizona (has that changed yet) and Malcom X well he's treated like Malcom X
Chewie: EX-****ING-ACTLY!
Chewie: Malcolm didn't want hatred. He was just very aggresive in how he pursued equality. In a way that was considered...abrasive, I guess you could say.
Pope: right on
Pope: Im cool with that It was nice talking to you see Im a good guy Im just the Charels Barkley of the Speech World

Tomato, Tomah-to, Potato, Potah-to.

Also, about the deleted lines...they were asked to be deleted for identity security purposes, and contained nothing argument-wise that isn't stated elsewhere in the convo.

...

And...MISSOURI'S THE BEST SPEECH STATE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!

*runs from thread*

[CatMan]

Ok Pope. You mentioned that Minnesota has no diversity? Time for a fact check.

The international extemp national champion in 2004, Ishaana Rambachan was female, is of color (from Trinidad originally), and oh, yeah, competed for a school from Minnesota.


Oh, and Minnesota is not just a 3 school state. There are many more good schools than just Eastview, Eagan, and Apple Valley. Moorhead won the national school of excellence in speech in 2004 -- including 2nd overall in DI.

Roseville had 2 semifinalists this year and now the coach from Eagan who made Eagan what it is, Jim Fedje, is now coaching for Lakeville. Lakeville had a quarterfinalist in duo and hi in 2005. Lakeville will be awesome in the years to come. Minnesota is more than just 3 schools.

Plus, it is amazing that Minnesota is able to do so well at nationals when it only has 3 districts. This means that Minnesota sends to nationals far fewer numbers than CA or TX who have loads of districts in their states. But yet, despite sending fewer students, MInnesota still does better.

Minnesota. No contest.

[Pulp Fictionist]

Very well presented. I honestly never thought about the 3-district aspect, and how that has no effect on Minnesota's competitors.

[What the deuce!?]

Edina High School has won a Debate school of excellence award 3 years in a row now, and had a national champ in LD in 2004, Furthermore, a few years back Minnesota took 1st, 3rd, and 6th in Policy debate. The schools were Blake, Edina, and Rosemount respectively. And obviously, these schools arent Eastview, AV, or Eagan...There are more than 3 schools in Minnesota.

[SniffyGuy]

I would like to try and make a comment to hopefully help keep some peace on this board.

Clearly we are all aware of the issue of racial equality/inequality. It's been there since before this country was founded, and it probably will be there long after we're dead, unfortunately. But here are my feelings on the issue.

The problem with racial equality/inequality in my eyes is the fact that we acknowledge race in the first place. Racial prejudice starts in the head - it's a mental thing. It doesn't exist first on paper or as a statistic; it exists first as a form of human perception.

As odd as it may seem to me now, I can remember a time before I perceived race. When I was a really young kid I just, I don't know, didn't know about it. I didn't know about being able to guess someone's religion upon hearing their last name. If someone had darker skin than me, that was all there was to it. It's not like that with me anymore. I've become jaded. I actually perceive race. Even if I don't automatically hate someone because they're different from me, I still am aware of the difference. And that's where the problem starts, with the awareness.

So I guess I'll try and tie this into the scenario brought up by Pope. Even though there haven't been perhaps as many black LD champions at NFL (if any - I don't know my stats), all of the champions of every category from every year of the NFL have one thing in common. They're all human, aren't they? Honestly, does it really mean anything if black people tend to win DI more than Extemp in recent years? As far as I'm concerned, they all should be viewed as people, no matter the ethnicity or gender. Isn't that what racial and sexual and all social equality is really all about?

Now, of course, this doesn't address the issue of judges allowing racism to factor into a decision or anything like that. I'm fully aware that sort of thing can occur; I've even been the victim of it myself. And unfortunately I don't really know how to solve that problem.

But anyway, that's my two cents.

Am I slightly on track here, or am I overlooking something completely? Feel free to tell me if you agree with me or not - this is an important topic.

I'm done for now though. I'm gonna go tie shopping.

[sassafrassz]

I'm done for now though. I'm gonna go tie shopping.

<3

Also, I would like to give mad props to Jeremy Schifberg, runner-up in LD. Yea, he got his *** handed to him in the final round, but HE"S FROM OREGON! (Which is better than all the other states combined.. really!)

[Chewie]

Aw...how cute. You had a finalist! You're growing up! You're gonna be a big state soon! Yes you are! Yes you are!! (gives Oregon a raspberry on it's tummy)

[MauldinDebater]

I personally believe MN takes it. Listening to the people in finals, you heard countless people from MN. CA had many, such as 2nd and 3rd in Duo, but MN had both Extemp champions, the past 2 years, or longer. That is an accomplishment all in itself.

Also, look at how many live in and compete in CA vs. MN. Per capita, Minnesota takes it.
Texas is another very good state, but I'm not sure if they do as well in as many events as MN. I could be mistaken, but I did not hear Texas as often. Then you could go back to the per capita thing.

[Theatreguy]

People stop bickering..... yay for texas, yay for california, yay more minesota, yay for alaska, yay for hong kong.... ok im done

[MauldinDebater]

Yay for SC?

Okay maybe not...

[Theatreguy]

Sure you can be kool 2....

[chrispac]

California is the best. Come on, we elected arnold, who can beat that

[Theatreguy]

@ forensics..... we already established that alaska is the best
do they even compete?

[nubian_lover]

I know that the whole Pope thing has died down, but I've gotta say this.

When I first read your post about the whole DI thing, I thought you were a racist ***, and then I read on, and figured out that you weren't racist, but were rather giving a bad name to black people. As a black woman, under your theory, I should be digusted at the things that are happening in 4n6. However, I feel the very opposite. 4n6 is a huge part of my life, and I in no way, shape, or form, feel that I'm being held back by color. Of course there are pieces that I cannot do because of my color and that sux, but so does every other ethnicity (yes, white is an ethnicity) Don't make gay *** generalizations like that. They're ridiculous. (Oh and by the way, I'm 100% sure that judges don't have it out to get me, and are giving me sixes because of my color. It would pretty hard for me to semifinal at every single event and tournament I've been to, and to final in most of them as well, if that was the case. )

Also, EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING has to do with politics. There's always going to be that select group of people who have their hopes set on having people like you fail, whether it be that you are gay, asian, indian, female, or talented. It's a fact of life that I figured as high school and college kids, we would figure out.

Lastly, EVERYONE IS NEVER GOING TO AGREE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO FINAL AT ANY TOURNAMENT! Everyone has their own likes and there's always going to be someone who should have finaled that didn't, regardless of race. Most people (most smart humble people) know that just because you get into the finals and/or place 1st doesn't mean that you are the best of the best. The most amazing person in an entire event could have dropped in quarters because some judges didn't have the same view on the piece.

That's all I have to say.

[Chewie]

Also, look at how many live in and compete in CA vs. MN. Per capita, Minnesota takes it.
Texas is another very good state, but I'm not sure if they do as well in as many events as MN. I could be mistaken, but I did not hear Texas as often. Then you could go back to the per capita thing.

I'm not sure per capita is a good argument Maudlin...because then you could have one champion from Wyoming, and need about 80 champions from California to be its "equivilent".


California is the best. Come on, we elected arnold, who can beat that

You misspelled "worst" and "can't".

[sassafrassz]

California is the best. Come on, we elected arnold, who can beat that

You misspelled "worst" and "can't".

HAHAHA I just got that.

[nubian_lover]

nubian_lover, whoever you are, I would just like to inform you that you are wonderful.

Carry on.

thank you. I seriously wasn't trying to offend anyone, but I can only hold it back for so long.

When I first read your post about the whole DI thing, I thought you were a racist ***, and then I read on, and figured out that you weren't racist, but were rather giving a bad name to black people.

1. why bring the discussion down with ad hom attacks?


As a black woman, under your theory, I should be digusted at the things that are happening in 4n6.

yes you probably should. You should at least recognize the structural and obvious exclusionary practices of forensics.


However, I feel the very opposite. 4n6 is a huge part of my life, and I in no way, shape, or form, feel that I'm being held back by color.

then you are either naive or you are lying to yourself. come on people WAKE UP. There is a reason why african american males tend not to succeed or even participate in extemp or debate. I seriously doubt its b/c a lack of intelligence. more likely are racist judges who discourage african american involvement in "intellectual" activities b/c they don't like their "ebonics", or b/c they can't envison someone darker than brant gumble doing anything but dancing or playing sports. Or perhaps racist coaches don't encourage or even allow african americans(especially males) to do extemp and debate, b/c they think their skills would be better suited in poetry. I have heard FIRST HAND accounts of judges coming out of a round saying they thought a black male debater's dialect or accent kept him from winning the round b/c they felt "it sounded less intelligent"


Of course there are pieces that I cannot do because of my color and that sux, but so does every other ethnicity (yes, white is an ethnicity) Don't make gay *** generalizations like that.

1. yea but when white/caucasions perform a piece that obviously was envisioned for someone not of color, do judges and competitors alike begin to groan "not another one playing the white card" People of color CONSTANTLY have to deal with judges striking out against pieces that tell the narrative of african americans(or other races) with comments such as "this piece doesn't relate to me"...or "i'm tired of hearing slave poetry"...
this means that judges keep people of color from succeeding b/c they reject the source of the literature(minorities) imagine the OUTRAGE if a black judge were to constantly down white competitors b/c their white piece didn't "relate" to them. this happens CONSTANTLY to african american competitors.

2. don't use gay as a synonym for bad or stupid. you propogate even more exclusion and discrimination.


They're ridiculous. (Oh and by the way, I'm 100% sure that judges don't have it out to get me, and are giving me sixes because of my color. It would pretty hard for me to semifinal at every single event and tournament I've been to, and to final in most of them as well, if that was the case. )

1. you should share your name so we all could share in your success story.

2. aren't you a good negro...good job accepting the racist system that was created and reified to ensure your defeat.

3. sounds like you have O.N.S.(only negro syndrome)...."look at me, i'm succeeding there must be no racism...if i can do it every negro can get in massa's house just like i have."

4. do you not think its sad that you are an exception and not the rule?



Also, EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING has to do with politics. There's always going to be that select group of people who have their hopes set on having people like you fail, whether it be that you are gay, asian, indian, female, or talented. It's a fact of life that I figured as high school and college kids, we would figure out.

great so your attitude is "the system is set up for me to fail, i should just accept it, and maybe if i keep my head down and work really hard i might get into the system so i can play the game."

the whole point is to challenge the exclusionary politics that keep your brothers and sisters down all over the country. if there are politics that keep people from the success they deserve for any reason...race, sexual orientation, or gender THEY SHOULD BE CHALLENGED NOT BLINDLY ACCEPTED.


Lastly, EVERYONE IS NEVER GOING TO AGREE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO FINAL AT ANY TOURNAMENT! Everyone has their own likes and there's always going to be someone who should have finaled that didn't, regardless of race. Most people (most smart humble people) know that just because you get into the finals and/or place 1st doesn't mean that you are the best of the best. The most amazing person in an entire event could have dropped in quarters because some judges didn't have the same view on the piece.

the whole point is that forensics is exclusionary and denies meaningful black participation....this position has little to do with who gets into finals or doesn't get into finals...one step at a time...forensics must first decide its going to give a fair shot to african americans.

[Jesus]

I attended the James Logan High School Invitational on Martin Luther King Weekend.

I finaled in Duo interpritation, Semied in Humor and got to semifinals in Parlimentary Debate.

In the duo final round, their were 7 teams. Asian-black, black-black, black-black, indian-asian, asian-asian, asian-latino, and me and my partner, white-white....

And while i could scream racism right now, i choose to include the last fact that we got last in the final round. Was this because of race?

Did i factor that every judge in the room was a minority? No.

We had a ****ty performance. It was one of our worst performed rounds--Duos like MONKEY, Drawer Boy, Fifers People and Dog Opera DESERVED to place over us. Not because they were of color, but because they were better performers in that round.

In the Humor Final round, their was one white conteder, Jeff Snider, from Lodi.

He got first place.

There were people in that humor round that I've beat at every other tourniment but got in finals over me...this wasnt because i was white, but because for one reason or another, some judges disliked my prformance, and the way the tourniment was accumulated.

In parlimentry, we lost on a split ballot to 2 asian girls. Every contendor in the final round was of color...but each one deserved to be there.

I'm not going to say because i was at the most diverse high school in the nation, they were racist against me, a white male, and therefore i didnt do as well as i did at other tourniments--iM just gunna say you win some you lose some.

Race is just as much an issue in these cases at the MLK as it is at the NFL

We also have to look at the people competing. At speech tourniments in California, the majoity of people are of color, whites being the minority, and thus the ratio will remain similar in final rounds.

At NFL, the majority of the kids arent of color, and thus the ratio in the final rounds remains in the same fashion.

Sometimes a black female is a better oritator than an asian male...because its the PERSON, not the race...

So back the **** off.

Slut.

...sorry, that was unnecissary (the last 2 lines)

[nubian_lover]

Listen, Swodaem-
We dropped the issue and have all moved on. I could really care less what you think of my views, seriously. If that's your thought then fine. Go find the pope and you two can talk about how crappy I am as a person. As I have said numerous times, I realize everyone's views are different, but you don't know me as a person, so don't assume that you do. I've been trying to be the bigger person in all this by just dropping the subject and letting you all debate about it. However, if you must know, the pope sent me a personal message after I wrote what I did, so here it is:

Pope: Are you serious?! :x
Me:yes I am.

If I offended you, sorry. I just think that there are better ways to get your point across then how you've been in recent posts. Maybe I didn't understand your theory. if there was really some racist things going on in 4n6, I would love to know. :)

(I got no response, so I wrote again)

Me:Dear Pope,
I think my last post might have not clearly explained my views. As of now, yes, I do live somewhere where I am one of few black kids. Am I comfortable with this, and therefore think that racism doesn't exist? No. In fact I feel quite the opposite. I have been hit with every kind of racism in the past four years since I moved there. I do realize that there is racism in this world, and a lot of it, and it will never disappear. However, the one event that I have done in my life that I have not felt racism in has been 4n6. I feel most respected in this atmosphere where you meet people from other school that you can bond with that may be more culturally diverse than your school is. Maybe I'm in denial. Who knows? I've always thought that if 4n6 had prejudices in it as well, then there really is no hope everywhere. I'm a very educated person, and I feel that I can look around and tell if racism is staring me right in the eye.

I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, it is harder for African-Americans than any other ethnic minority to find pieces that aren't stereotypical, but that's the beauty of it. When you do find a piece you connect with, you've gone miles farther than most interpers. I do realize that many African-Americans have not won national championships, but you also have to realize that there really aren't many African-Americans in 4n6. I'm optimistic, however that things will change (hopefully in my lifetime).

I harbor no ill will to you, and I really hope that you don't harbor any ill will towards me. We may be more alike than we think, and I hope that a few heated posts between us can be forgiven, especially if we do know each other. (I doubt that you know who I am, however. I think I would realize if there were more African-Americans in a tournament with me :wink: ). You can pm me back any time. I would be glad to hear your response.

Still I got no response. See? I am trying to end the whole issue since I obviously pissed some people off. If you have any more problems with something I said, then you can pm me and vent there. I'm tired of going on a forensics, thinking it will be fine, and then seeing some more people attacking me.

PS
I didn't mean to offend anyone with the gay comment I was just really mad. I have gay friends, many of them, and I didn't mean anything by it.

[addjsd12]

My goodness, we are all excitable! lol. By the way Jesus, the last 2 lines were quite funny!

[Chewie]

Doo doo doo...everyone's a little bit racist...

Sometimes...

But you know what?

It doesn't mean we go around committing hate criiiimes....

Maybe it's a fact
we should all face,

That we all make judgements
based on race!

Now, I'm not talking about big judgements like who wins nationals or who qualifies to state.

No!

No, just little judgements like thinking that the **** Hispanic kid from Topeka should stop doing an oratory on Mexican pride!

RIGHT!

Everyone's a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone's a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!

RE****INGLAX GODDAMMIT!

*ahem*

The Jews have all
The money
And the whites have all
The power.
And I'm always in taxi-cab
With driver who no shower!

Me too!

Me too!

I can't even get a taxi!

BIG FINISH!

Everyone's a little bit racist
It's true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!

Evlyone's a ritter bit lacist!

[addjsd12]

I have all the money and power huh? OK! Its official, im taking over this freaking place!

[Chewie]

You can't be WHITE and JEWISH. Everyone knows that, even Gary Coleman. Just look at Jesus Christ!

[Jesus]

Funny how me and Chewie deal with racial problems the same way.

Chewie, check the DI thread, I also sited avenue q hoping to clear our differences...it didnt work.

I still want to see what popes responce to my argument about MLK is....

..Im rethinking it. I actually, looking back at it, think i didnt get into finals because i am white. I heard people saying that won african american finalist at logan got in "because he's black"...it was basically a monolouge...no pops no nothing. and i chose to reject this theory and decide that the cards just didnt have it for me to final in HI that tourniment. But you know what, no. They're racist. I beat everyone of those competitors in every other tourniment i went up against them at (besides jeff). Racist *******s. Just cuz iM white. right pope?

[addjsd12]

Ohhhhhhh yes yes yes, u bet i can be! :lol: And i am very much both.... but less jewish... i mean i am jewish but kinda like Jay Fiedler Jewish!

[Owokere]

Hey Chris/Jesus do not disrespect my tournament like that. Whether joking or not. You dont break because your just not as good as you hype yourself up to be. You've never done anything but choke in final rounds. Dont degrade the integrity of James Logan MLK tournament because you are then degrading Mr. Tommie Lindsey, and that is soemthing I just wont stand for.

B.O.U

[sassafrassz]

oy vey.
not another argument.

[xxLusciousZechxx]

You dont break because your just not as good as you hype yourself up to be. You've never done anything but choke in final rounds.

I hope you never get any vagina (or dick, I don't discriminate) for the rest of your life.

[jman255*]

I don't know if I read it completely wrong, but did Chris really put down the MLK tournament?

[Nocturne]

I didn't really think so. I like that tournament, myself.

Even though I'm pretty sure Logan kid's get judged by their own parents, it's still a fun tournament

(just kidding)

[Jesus]

Wow, hooray for coming back onto the board and reading my post wrong *******.

I said that because i didnt break, i DID NOT attribute it to racism or sexism as Pope Oratory the Great hs with the NFL tournament.

I said, and i quote


There were people in that humor round that I've beat at every other tourniment but got in finals over me...this wasnt because i was white, but because for one reason or another, some judges disliked my prformance...

i DO NOT scream racism when every one in the final round of the tourniment is a minority, and thus proving the point that Pope Oratory shouldn't scream racism when 3 out of six extempers in final round are white males. They got there because of their talent.

I in no way disrespected any touniment or competitors and my last post was mearly a facetious mirroring of Pope's reaction to the NFL.

So read before you rant, *******.

And this season--3rd at CA States, 3rd at long beach, finalist at berkely, 4th at stanford, 4th at fullerton--last season, 2nd at berkely, 2nd at scu

So, that's not exactly choking....

And i would in no way disrespect Tommie Lindsey.

Ever.

[Chewie]

I think there's a much bigger issue here.

First Zech did it, then Jesus, now I do it, and even Nocturne is kind of doing it.

Why the **** do we all post once sentence per paragraph?

I mean, seriously?

There are much bigger issues of proper spelling, grammar, and syntax that need to be addressed here people.

It's a lot of fun, I suppose.

And good for implying dramatic pauses...

But whatever happened to actual paragraphs?

Our English teachers would be weeping.

[Jesus]

Um, look at the topic of my post on page 4

Then you'll see that i did it on porpus

:)

Listen, Swodaem-
We dropped the issue and have all moved on. I could really care less what you think of my views, seriously. If that's your thought then fine. Go find the pope and you two can talk about how crappy I am as a person. As I have said numerous times, I realize everyone's views are different, but you don't know me as a person, so don't assume that you do. I've been trying to be the bigger person in all this by just dropping the subject and letting you all debate about it. However, if you must know, the pope sent me a personal message after I wrote what I did, so here it is:

I'm not trying to be combative and i tried to keep the ad homs minimal...however THESE ARE IMPORTANT ISSUES...and if forensics is such an open fabulous forum that most claim it to be, why is everyone so leery to talk about race. Did anyone notice that no one attempted to beat back any of my points? They either called me names or told me that the issue was closed. We talk about TONS of controversial issues in forensics however, when the attention turns to the exclusionary practices of speech itself suddenly discourse just is not possible.


I love all of ya'll(especially Big KY woot!) and its sad that I can't talk about issues concerning race without the big angry black man label. Why is it impossible to have signifigant discourse about an important subject?


Jesus - thank you for giving a personal story and sharing your narrative. However, I think your focus is much too narrow. You're talking about a tournament at LOGAN: THE MOST DIVERSE SPEECH TEAM IN THE COUNTRY. Which is located in what is probably the most diverse part of the country. The MLK tournament is not the norm, but a rare exception. I think focusing on the national stage gives a broader and more accurrate perspective of the normative politics of speech.

Also Jesus, you focus ALOT on interp. To begin with interp is one area where forensics seems to generally accept african americans as legitimate performers. But in MY post I was specifically talking about the events that are percieved as the "intellectual" events. Debate...extemp...how many african americans have been on the final stage in those events. How many have won? How many african american males, who studies show are the most threatening minority to whites, have even DONE the event with much success?

also all should realize that in debate some teams are making the exclusionary, racist, facist, and normative practices of forensics as their main argument. Look up the Louisville Project or read the KCC report on NPR...you'll realize that national recognition has been given to those who are brave enough to challenge the exclusion that oppresses african-americans every saturday. :)

[Nocturne]

[quote="chewchewtrain64"]I think there's a much bigger issue here.

First Zech did it, then Jesus, now I do it, and even Nocturne is kind of doing it.

Why the **** do we all post once sentence per paragraph?

I mean, seriously?

There are much bigger issues of proper spelling, grammar, and syntax that need to be addressed here people.

It's a lot of fun, I suppose.

And good for implying dramatic pauses...

But whatever happened to actual paragraphs?

Our English teachers would be weeping.[/quote

Yeah...I'm really bad at that. Sorry! (Especially on AIM)

[xxLusciousZechxx]

*****, I've always typed my posts in that fashion.

You know how we do.

[Chewie]

If we ever come up with a list/dictionary of fo.net-exclusive terms, I'm sure the most popular will be the Zech-Style Post (Z-SP):

Zech-Style Post (n.): A post consisting of multiple sentences, each of which are separated into their own distinct paragraphs. Effective for dramatic pauses and bringing focus to each statement. Named for Zech Leal, who first popularized the posting style in his own posts.

[xxLusciousZechxx]

::Humbled::

[Jesus]

Jesus - thank you for giving a personal story and sharing your narrative. However, I think your focus is much too narrow. You're talking about a tournament at LOGAN: THE MOST DIVERSE SPEECH TEAM IN THE COUNTRY. Which is located in what is probably the most diverse part of the country.

Yes, indeed but that was one school. Salt Lake City hosted nationals last year--the final round was dominanly white...so, should i say you should've expected that because Salt Lake City? hmmm got him


But in MY post I was specifically talking about the events that are percieved as the "intellectual" events. Debate...extemp...how many african americans have been on the final stage in those events. How many have won?

Um, I dont know too much, but i know that the winners of the CAHSSA in policy debate were two african american males...the only ones not dressed in tourniment attire in finals--they were decked out for the dance in hip hop attire...

TOUCHE

seriousely...
...I admire that

[Ryan]

Chad, have you considered writing a Comm. Analysis speech on the topic of your rant? I'd enjoy listening to it and I'm sure many others would too.

maybe...but would my artifact be..forensics in general..or would i have to find like a certain event or state tournament? finding a model might be tough too...but i'll look into it...thanks for the idea ryan..hopefully i'll see you in some crit final round

DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SIXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[guest]

Yes, indeed but that was one school. Salt Lake City hosted nationals last year--the final round was dominanly white...so, should i say you should've expected that because Salt Lake City? hmmm got him
[quote="Swodaem"]


Actually Jesus if I remember correctly the final rounds of Salt Lake was one of the most diverse in history

Just look at the Duo Oratory and HI rounds

[Guffaw]

Im from a smaller town in southern Minnesota and i go to the first high school leage tournament that has everyone from that district ( the schwans tournament in marshal)..... it's amazing! When you see competitors like Joe Palzin and Caroline Inerbikler (sorry about spelling) it inspires me and helps make me a better competitor. I love my state!!