NFL NATIONALS (2005)

[Theatreguy]

Post all results here!!!

[Theatreguy]

Breaks i heard danny broke.... and Nickita

[Theatreguy]

ORIGINAL ORATORY
105
108
111
123
126
130
131
133
139
142
146
148
150
151
152
160
161
166
168
169
170
174
176
180
183
186
192
193
196
197
198
199
201
202
210
213
217
223
228
236
238
241
242
243
244
246
247
250
255
261
267
274
277
284
288
291
293
295
298
300
305

[toughguy422]

i wish i knew whose numbers those are. if by danny you mean danny carissimi, then good. i met him at harvard and he seemed like a cool kid. he got screwed in octos. if anyone at nfls reads this, good luck!

[Theatreguy]

Quarters Breaks
108
111
123
126
130
133
146
160
161
174
176
183
186
196
199
202
236
238
241
242
246
250
255
261
267
274
277
284
298
305

[sebastian19]

my friend Ally Carey broke to quarters! Good luck to her! (not too sure of her code though..)

[Theatreguy]

Danny Charissami is in quarters.... i hope he wins... his oo is amazing

[IamTHATnerd]

my girl Katie Bauer broke!!! #123!!!! Danny better watch his back, shes coming back with vengeance after her ridiculous crush at CFL. KATIE BAUER IS COMIN FOR YA!!!!!

[Theatreguy]

Dannys in semis!!

[FunkyChicken]

danny is indeed awesome. Good luck and remeber the funk, man!

[IamTHATnerd]

SEMIS BREAKS:

108
146
161
174
196
199
202
238
242
246
255
267
277
298

[Theatreguy]

DANNY MADE FINALS!!!!

[chapstickisgood]

Laura Roehl of Apple Valley High School (MN) is in finals.

[Pope Oratory the Great]

As I predicted in an earlier thread months ago go back and quote my I said Apple Vally would have a finalist they always do. But people should watch out Clifford Tsang I watched this guy grow an Im glad he picked OO over extemp. He will avenge the CA defeat in OO this year infact his delivery is very smooth and funny a lot like Dan from TX but I would go out ona lime to say it's better. And remember the final round is important it can make a change (sigh I should know) but like Scott from Milton Dan has been well hyped and I wouldnt be surprised if he places last. Im not hating(I like the kid competed against him in an outround at NFL last year hope he comes to WKU) but people need to realize that national titles are won before round 13.

Good luck to all and is James Mcgraw from MD in finals all he's done is win.

[jdcongresscapt]

As is my understanding, McGraw didn't go to Philly.

[tucsonspeaks]

glad to see the wycoffs are still successfully writing speeches...silly me, i always thought it was supposed to be a student's work...

[toughguy422]

hey, its james mcgraw, and no i am not in philly. i qualified (md is horribly weak), but i was the only member on my team who wanted to go and i was going to have to arrange everything and whatnot. i appreciate you saying that i all do is win pope, especially since you usually seem so critical of orators, but i have dropped a couple times this year, forensicsonline just hasnt recorded it. i knew someone from apple valley was going to make it too. they had two in finals at cfl nats, but laura roehl, in my opinion is a stronger orator than both (she dropped in semis at cfl nats). i expect her to place in the top 3 but probably not win. i dont know who else is in finals. i think danny will probably place in the top 3, just from what i have heard. i have a feeling he wont win, because i got the sense that he often polarizes judges-- 235 at harvard. but he probably carried strong octos and quarters ranks. please list who else broke.

[Abbey7]

Well I'm new at this, but I just wanted to say good luck to Danny Charasimi (as if he needs it) I was in semis and finals with him at St. Marks and he is EXTREMELY AMAZING!

[toughguy422]

the word is that isaac maddow-zimet is going to win oratory or at least the final round. i heard he owned the crowd, and everyone else was amusing but not dominant.

[jdcongresscapt]

Since when is Maddow-Zimet not amusing? Granted, I still am not sure why he "freaks out" in the middle of his speech, or the whole point of the "widow's desire" story(which borders on tasteless), but he's good.

[timjanas]

to respond to that last post, the widow's desire story demonstrates the topic of the speech- cultural misunderstanding- it's also hysterical and controversial, though from his ranks in finals, some judges probably did see it as too much- also jumping off the stage- though it was brave and totally supporting the point of the piece-might have been looked down upon. while i do agree that the girl who won is a good orator, she did have a safe speech, and from what i heard, was not the audience favorite. i'd say that final round was very political.

[jdcongresscapt]

It's funny all right, but it takes up more than half his speech

[Theatreguy]

Everyone i talked to thought danny won hand down

[Aelfric5578]

I had always enjoyed Isaac's speech mostly for his delivery and for his jokes. The speech is hilarious. But he has added more content to it since the last time I heard it. Now, the speech is not only funny but very powerful. He also knows exactly how to use a room (whether it's a classroom or the Philadephia version of Carnegie Hall). I am surprised that he didn't win.

[jdcongresscapt]

I had always enjoyed Isaac's speech mostly for his delivery and for his jokes.

Agreed

[Theatreguy]

jd do u do oo?

[jdcongresscapt]

I will next year
My working topic is our increased sense of morbidity

[Theatreguy]

neat topic

[jdcongresscapt]

Thanx
Do you do oo?

[Theatreguy]

Yep.... tis my favorite event there is

[jdcongresscapt]

Have you chosen a topic for next year?

[Theatreguy]

Ummm not really... its sorta a bunch of ideas right now.... like i have partail things written... but i dont know

[jdcongresscapt]

What did you do this year? How well'd you do?

[Katrina]

I had always enjoyed Isaac's speech mostly for his delivery and for his jokes. The speech is hilarious. But he has added more content to it since the last time I heard it. Now, the speech is not only funny but very powerful. He also knows exactly how to use a room (whether it's a classroom or the Philadephia version of Carnegie Hall). I am surprised that he didn't win.

I LOVED this speech. I thought it was so much fun to listen to, and he took risks. I liked that. I was very sad that Isaac didn't win. :D

[Pope Oratory the Great]

to respond to that last post, the widow's desire story demonstrates the topic of the speech- cultural misunderstanding- it's also hysterical and controversial, though from his ranks in finals, some judges probably did see it as too much- also jumping off the stage- though it was brave and totally supporting the point of the piece-might have been looked down upon. while i do agree that the girl who won is a good orator, she did have a safe speech, and from what i heard, was not the audience favorite. i'd say that final round was very political.

Please dont say it was politics because as a victim of it for so many years that was not the case for Issac. He is a hit or miss performer with his style and deserved the rank he got. He didnt win the final and was not even in the top 2 going into finals. The girl from AppleValley deserved to win because she wrote a better speech and had a solid delivery not doing gimmicks to get a pop from the crowd. The audience doesnt know jack because if they did they wouldnt be watching. :? She went into finals in 1st and left it that way. Trust me Im not hating on Isac I competed against him in fact I helped the person editing his speech before Nats so I knew the result he would have before he competed but I trully think people should talk about the politics that others use like getting over 6 1's in a final because a duo may be funny on a stage but wasnt recieving those kind of ranks through out 12 rounds should be the questions asked. Which brings me to another topic NFL should get rid of the final round for three reasons. 1 Some of the judges on the panel no little about judging the event or dont know forensics at all (Schwan members) 2 Unfair advantage is given to mindless humor or shock value in order to entertain the crowd 3 is it trully fair for a person to win 12 rounds and loose out on $6,000 and a national title because their piece or speech didnt look good on a stage. Solution have a 13th round just like the 12th and 11th and then hold a show case round which is what the final is anyway let the judges judge to see who wins the showcase but it's ranks dont count in the overall. Everyone is happy and the real "tournament" champions are crowned.

[Chewie]

*cues up Linkin Park for POtG*

The idea of final round reform might not be entirely crazy, but won't happen.

1. Those Schwan's judges, or any lay judges, are there to serve AS lay judges. The merit of having non-speech experts judge a final round is to ensure the finalists are able to present a broader appeal and build rapport to those besides just speech coaches/experts/etc.

2. Depends what you define as unfair. If it builds rapport with the crowd, isn't that just as important as its actual substance?

If you're giving a real speech, no matter how detailed and important the info may be, if your audience doesn't pay attention, you won't be able to convey your message.

3. You mean just have a final round where no one is "really" judged, but just sorta shown off, and the crowd decides? Like Battle of the Bands?

[Viet Moneys]

Alright. Fist of all, I'm going to agree that Issac's speech is gimmicky and disorganized. I saw it in Octos and was astounded that he broke to quarters. Nevertheless, I feel that he dominated final round. You're all correct, the National Champion's piece was safe, but it was safe because it was cliched and unoriginal. Personally, I placed her in the bottom half of the round. All in all, it was a good round, but I am a little suprised with how it turned out.

[jman255*]

I am not an Orator, but I did watch the finals round and enjoyed it. The Apple Valley girl, in my opinion, knew way too much aboout Bill Buckner...Now, get angry at me if you must, but isn't Apple Valley known for sometimes writing their students' oratories? I placed Danny first in the round becuase he took such a vague topic and made it appealing. His introduction was almost as good as Issac's, and he had the best presentation and speaking voice of all the males there, one thing that Issac was majorly missing. Issac's posture and tone and certainty of his voice was not there...I didn't get the feeling that he was trying to change my view on things; however, his Iraq stroy was very very good. Yes, his hop off the stage was pretty sweet, but I noticed most of the judges didn't even turn around to look at him. Standing behind a judge was probably a mistake. I also feel that his speech was very...sexual. That is all.

And there you have it...An opinion of a lay oration viewer.

[Theatreguy]

To answer your ? Jd mine was about how humor oversimplyfys complex problems.... ect ect.
I did well!

Yea danny is a good speaker....

[nick]

I competed at philly this year, and I was disappointed with finals. I saw some speeches in quarters that I thought were better than some in finals. Nats, in my opinion, is so much luck. Who you hit? What the judges think? Personally, I thought the "Yow" speech was great. He was very true. He spoke about what he believed, and he was the only one in finals to encompass the whole audience. I gave Danny the two. I have hit Danny so many times, and in my opinion, that was not his best performance. I would have given the Apple Valley girl third, Isaac second, and the last two were fine. I thought that "Count on it..." and "Time Machine Mentality" should have finaled.

I hit Isaac in Quarters, and the judges loved him! I wasn't impressed. I think he had a lot of genius in his speech, but overall...i just don't know. I also think that if his speech is about culture, then he should know that it is the culture of forensics not to have a penis joke in your speech. If you do, you are just asking to be marked down. I think Isaac is very charismatic. I liked him a lot for that.

Overall, I thought everyone did a good job, but I thought the round was missing some really good orators. But good job to everyone!

[Pope Oratory the Great]

Not only was the NFL tournament missing James form MD but I know the National Champ would have been Lisa Weiner. Who has one of the best delivery's I've seen in years. And It doesn't hurt the fact that she is probably the most attractive women I've seen on the speech circuit in some time. But she left to do bigger and better things with her acting career so good luck to her.

[MauldinDebater]

Widow's Desire was a classic. Any teenager would say he was excellent, however we could care less about how racy it was. I gave him first, because he conveyed his point the best, and filled up the Kimmel Center best.

Overall, pretty dam good round.

[tucsonspeaks]

Interesting to note that Anton Ford came forward several years after he won his titles and admitted that both of his national winning speeches were largly plagerized.

Also interesting to note that AV and AA orators throughout the 90s were ALL coached and written by Bob Marx as well as Pam Cady and Joe Wycoff, SR. If you do a rhetorical analysis of the speeches from those schools, it is obvious to anyone who has studied writing that they are all authored by someone with a remarkably similar style/voice. What is the chance that every AV/AA student over a 15 year period could EVER learn to write with such precise rhetorical duplication as their predicessors?

You want to do well in oratory? Hire a good professional creative writer and then spend the bulk of your time working on delivery. No one can possibly believe that the speeches that are heard in the final rounds of nationals are exclusively written by high school students. It is sad, to me, when "coaching" morphs into doing the research and writing of a adolescent's speech...

Perhaps there is a topic in here somewhere dealing with ethics....Of course no one would ever have the gall to openly question the ethics of such "esteemed" coaches for fear of political reprisal...

Since the NFL has upped the amount of scholarship money that comes from winning a national title (or even being in the final round), it is time that the community finds ways to police itself. I would contend that in someways finding others to write (under the guise of "editing") a student's speech is like taking steroids to win a gold medal in an athletic event. Unfortunately, we don't have a test for intellectual "doping" in speech and debate--but maybe we should at least openly address the issue rather than tacitly bury out heads in the sand.

Which is more important, building the ego of a 50+ y/o adult or honoring the legitimate success of a 17 y/o writing and speaking efforts? Only the adults involved can seriously answer the question...but can they do it with any sense of honesty?

Something to think about, nonetheless....

[Pope Oratory the Great]

Very intrsting most would say you sound bitter but I'll say youir right on. However this is not true for all. Why I do believe and know of Bob Marks having a large had in writing and oration every coach does this. And a lot of the national fianlist were coached by Bob Marks, Randal Micutheon, Joe and Pam Wycolf seeing as they often had multiple students in the final round between the early and mid 90's . I was a national first runner up in OO myself and I had my speech revised by Mr. Micutheon and other than two line corrections and an addtional source my speech was the same. In fact we were getting ready to scrap it after I wast breaking earlier in the year. In my underclassmen years my speeches were very infuenced by coaches but Senior year from start to finish it was all me. And hey if students wrote all the speech by themselves it would all be standup and sob stories. That's is why upperclassmen dominate OO.

Great Post though really informing.

[Pope Oratory the Great]

In fact I would like to ask who were you affiliated with coaching Tuscan. I figure you were an OO finalist possibly even an OOer at AA. If not you are obviously a coach who's kids have been beaten by these schools. Im not trying to up set you by the way I just really would like to know PM me. I have no affiliation with AA or AV in fact im looking on coaching kids in delivery to beat those schools.

[Theatreguy]

hey pope you said " I was a national first runner up in OO myself"

Does taht mean you got 2nd at nationals.... or does that mean you got alternate to nats?

[toughguy422]

yea, i was wondering the same thing. from other posts, it is known that you are black. if you are national runner up-- that means you came in second. and if you were a senior last year, then you probably came in 2nd at nationals last year. i did not see the finals last year, but i do know that saeed came in second, and using the racism deep inside of me, i am willing to guess he is black (not to mention he did apparently moon walk). so being the expert that i am, this appears to mean that you are saeed.

PS- you also implied that you were a member of the wku team which i know saeed is a part of. the only tricky thing is that saeed has another log-in name. hmmmmmm i ponder.

[ALPHAjones]

WHOA. WHOA. WHOA!

i cannot BELIEVE my name has someone gotten pulled into this discussion. I AM SAEED JONES. yes, i placed second in oratory in salt lake city and won the final round. yes, my oratory addressed current issues with racism.

but let me be absolutely clear when i say I AM NOT POPE ORATORY THE GREAT. i didn't even have a membership to this website until about two minutes ago and the only reason i got one was to clear my name.

I don't know who Pope is, but i think it's sad that you assume it's me just because i'm african-american.

you do not know me. you do not know my opinions.

so LEAVE ME OUT OF IT.

thank you and have a very nice day,

Saeed

[MauldinDebater]

Hate when that happens...

[toughguy422]

obviously, i was too bold with my assessments. i apologize for that. however, now i must defend myself. while i did use race to support my assessment, it was certainly not the only support. the whole thing about being second at nfls and doing oratory last year was my major basis. second of all, i am not saying that i know you, i did not say POPE YOU ARE SAEED JONES, SAEED JONES IS POPE. i proposed the possibility, but i didnt state it as fact. i had no idea what your speech was about, so i certainly wasnt trying to draw any parallels there. and

gshock04

Merit


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 25
Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:34 pm


Hey Lizzy...once again, congrats on winning Natls. you rock my socks off.

- Saeed Jones

yeah, that's right, i got to moonwalk in the tabernacle

doesnt that suggest that you didnt just become a member only two minutes ago?

All in all, I am sorry for dragging you into this and perhaps briefly slandering your name.

[oratorychica]

yeah so I'm kind of hurt that some people assume that all of the speeches in the final rounds are written by coaches. Give me an effing break. It is true that the "five pyramid" format has been used successfully for years but its only a template. Sometimes you have to have a little faith in other people. Please, don't make blind accusations when you don't have anything to back them up.My speech was totally mine from the beginning, it was my baby, and I love it. Plus, in my final round (2004) all of the competitors were seniors. If the coaches are writing all of the speeches, it would be a pretty big coincidence that only the most experienced people made it to finals.
PS Take it from me, nothing hurts more then people who don't even know you, saying you didn't deserve to win nationals. You have the right to voice your opinion, but I just wanted to say that.

Oratory Chica your right about one thing and wrong about another.

First your right people have no write to make accusations like that

Second the speech why written by you(Ill take you word for it Chesterton is in the same mold as AA and AV) was very reminiscent to the Oratory Yasmine won with in 2001 her play on her beak was jus the same as your play on your hair.

[ALPHAjones]

I agree with Oratorychica.

We need to stop all the hating. Let's face it - at best, all you can ever have about a final round speech is a SUSPICION that the competitor didn't actually write all of the speech.

and a mere suspician does not, in my opinion, warrant all the venom that has been spewed as of late.

i have been in a final round and i know how much it hurts to log on to this website and read comments from students who make bold and DAMAGING statements about people's integrity.

bottom line: if you are absolutely convinced that a speech was not written by a student, you should bring it to the attention of district chairs, coaches, and tournament officials well BEFORE the final round is over. in doing so, you can go about it in a professional and, dare i say it, MATURE manner rather than gossiping about it weeks after the national trophies have already been handed out.

Saeed